The problem with Bose

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 17 January 2005

Subject: Word.

Yeah, Mike, the alternate Bizarro Mike- I totally agree. The LiquidTheater Mike doesn't compare apples to oranges, he compares apples to rotten apples, or turds in this case. And another thing, this ron guy should comment on my earlier statements, about KLH haveing Bose killers for a pair of speakers. The difference, as I see it, is quality. a bunch of low end paper/cloth 2 1/2" drivers and foam/paper 5 1/4" woofers can't ever hope to produce the same quality of a well designed 12" sub , a 4 1/2" midrange, and a 1" tweeter, even though in the case of KLH, is also paper, but well engineered and reinforced, and polycarbonate for the tweeter.
Is there any excuse for a 1000$ Bose system being mercilessly beaten by 100$ cheap towers (I still have my Bose system by the way and still A/B it from time to time and want to get rid of it)?
Is there any reasonable explanation from Bose as to why every one of their headphones being in the bracket of 150-400$ being so easily beaten by Grado SR60's costing around 70$, when the slogan is "Better Sound Through Research"? (I've heard offering from both companie.s) I may be a biased Grado whore, but at least I know good bang for the buck when I hear it.

"I used to believe in Bose, but Bose didn't answer my prayers and I became disillusioned from the Church of Bose. Now I can hear all kinds of great music the way it was meant to be heard, my balding head of hair grew back, now I date supermodels, gas is cheaper at the pump, and food even tastes better! Did I mention I grew 6 inches in that special of places? It's awesome!"

(I'm LMAO right now, I just had to put that in.)
-Abe

From: Mike (not the same one) ( mjh@mninter.net ) on 11 January 2005

Subject: response to Ron

Ron Smith,

I don’t think you read the article. Mike clearly compares four (4) other speaker systems that cost less than or equal to the Bose Acoustimass 15 system. The specs for each of those systems is much better than the Bose system. Admittedly, the Bose speakers are probably the smallest, but there are other small speakers that have better specs. If you had read the article and looked at the systems he is comparing Bose to, you’d know he is not “Comparing a 7 inch cube speaker to a huge 2 feet tall.” And he is not comparing JBL speakers to the Bose system. Next time, read the article.

From: Ron Smith ( ronsmith29@yahoo.com ) on 6 January 2005

Subject: Bose Better Sound Through Research

To all anti-BOSE critics,

Have you ever wonder engineers from the said company made a remarkable breakthrough on producing very good sound on very tiny loudspeakers?

Technically anti BOSE critics, you're all stupid. Why? Think a speaker that you always compare with BOSE products till up to now. They're still in design of 1960's up to the 70's which we call CONVENTIONAL LOUDSPEAKERS. A three or two way damn technology is very incomparable to applications that BOSE is selling to the market as of now. Dr. Amar Bose re- invented those concept because he believes everything should be done for the better and everyone needs a change if it's from the old school crap. There are people telling B&W is the best when it comes sound reproduction. Well, a B&W loudspeaker that cost US$ 20,000 to 50,000 which only queen of England and a Sultan of Brunei whom only owns it will be obviously sound great. That if you could afford one. That's why BOSE entered this sound market due to price that always been a knock off on listeners and consumers. Think of a 901 series from BOSE and try to compare a B&W, M&K, NHT, or any speaker you may prefer on a same price to price basis, I can assure you no other speaker would ever match those 901 units when it comes to producing astonishing clean and very loud sound. Come on guys, you can't compare a Sony receiver having a tag price of US$ 1,500 or a yamaha rx-v2095 receiver came from stupid R.J. Rauso (RJRauso@aol.com ) that cost US$ 1,600 and with just a pair of old JBL speakers to an Acoustimass 15 or 16 loudspeakers. What you can do is try to find a model from Bose that is same priced for those old JBL speakers and HEAR IT! That guy is nothing but a stupid sh*t head coz he don't know how audio enthusiasts compares sound reproduction from price, dimension and over all structure of different products. Comparing a 7 inch cube speaker to a huge 2 feet tall is nothing but a heck. Think of a company spending millions of dollars on research and development of how sound would be better or be the best at any condition and always focusing on building products in very small package. And think of those imitators that BOSE did exactly over 20 years and still applying BOSE design because of poor research and just sticking on very old technology coz they don't want to spend a nickel on their products. If you buy BOSE loudspeakers, you bought it with great confidence because you've payed something for their research. A product that is very expensive with design being just implemented by an original manufacturer is nothing but a SH*T! Sorry for the word, but it's only BOSE which produces loudspeakers that are 1,000 light years ahead of present loudspeakers from different respected manufacturers.

BOSE Better Sound Through Research!

So Mike, can't you understand? maybe it's because you're nothing but just a poor listener that haven't tried a tiny loudspeaker from BOSE.

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 27 July 2004

Subject: Those in love with Bose aren't gonna like this!

I wondered if there was a better system than bose at the lowest available price point, and I think I found it when I A/B'd the front stereo channels of the Acoustimass 15 and a pair of 100$ KLH 9250B floorstanding towers in my home. Needless to say, the KLH had highs that only Japanese Bose Westborough speakers can touch, and lows that go deep, so deep, so deep (advertised as 28-20Khz). I never use EQ's, so the tests were far more fair from one set to the other, and Bose lost. Badly. Looks like I'm pretty much done with my search for "econo-audiphile" components, but I still need a center/surrounds package that is timbre matched to the towers. Oh, and I no longer need a subwoofer (there's no budget sub out there that goes down to 20Hz), as these bad boys naturally hit harder and lower than any Bose at any price! (I can still get an LFE amp add on later if I want in the future =})

Bose? I don't need no stinkin' Bose! Ha ha ha...

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 8 July 2004

Subject: I'm sure that there's an econosystem out there for a few $$$, but I need to know where to get one.

I would listen through my headphones, btw, have you heard what the cheapest (SR60) Grado's sound like? THAT'S "econo-audiophile sound". I still haven't seen anyone yet that conteded with that sentiment. They kill anything by Bose, including their headphone offerings, which i've heard myself, and yes, they are a joke to the industry. One guy at headfi.org said the Triports sound great at 40$, but they cost almost 4x that. There's gotta be something out there that lets me share that kind of sound with others, that's why I need a take on some of the 300$< offerings out there. Does anyone have any suggestions? I know there's gotta be something out there that makes me crap myself for just around three c-notes.

~I'm hard as soft porn, black as popcorn~

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 7 July 2004

Subject: Econo-Audiophile?

An Econo-Audiophile system for under $300? Yeah you have a sense of humor alright, LMAO!!

There's no such thing, as a matter of fact, "audiophile", "econo", and "under $300" shouldn't even be in the same sentance.

Maybe you should just stick to listening through your headphones.

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 2 July 2004

Subject: but what if all 5 speakers are right up next to each other in a line?

Alright, my internet connection was f----d (I used AOL 9.0 Optimized, d'oh! It made me restore the hard drive to stock, but the connection was free, so I can't complain too much) Getting back at hand, the issue wasn't that important to me, as like I said, Bose pales to my 70$ grados, period. Now my task here is to get some kind of response from anyone concerning my choices for an econo-audiophile home theatre system for under $300, including Mike Shea, who really should try these cans I've got, and you too, Mister. Just don't make me take your broken wings or learn to live again, and especially live so free. I'm laughing so hard, sorry if the humor isn't to your liking.
SHAZAM!

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 28 June 2004

Subject: Well you mentioned it

You spent that time explaining your issue with the pink noise, that would make me think you wanted it addressed......otherwise you wouldn't have said anything.

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 28 June 2004

Subject: that doesn't matter; I need some take on the Movieworks 58

so is there any take on the Movieworks 58 out there? I'll be setting up a seller's account so I can toss my present setup to the wayside. If it can't sing like Grado's for the money, it's not worth my two cents anyhow. I hear opinions from various sources that that 58 system is really great, but I need a more collected opinion before I get one. The only other system I've seen that might be good, emphasizing MIGHT, is this Onkyo system with the processor/amp built right into the sub for around 200$, with DD/DTS. I like my current reciever though.

~All your base better recognize!!~

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 27 June 2004

Subject: Noise Test Differences

Abe,

Do address your concern:

The reason you are hearing slight differences is probably based on how your speakers are placed and the acoustical environment that surrounds them. Remember, the speakers are split and able to be angled different directions......so you could have a Left speaker angled towards drapes on a window and the Right speaker angled towards a wall......and they both will sound audibly different. I would suggest having all the speakers angled straight foward and THEN run the test.

Bose corrects that with their AdaptiQ, but that's only in Lifestyle.

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 27 June 2004

Subject: Only wanted to dispute

Abe, I only wanted to dispute misinformation, that was my only goal.

From: Abe (Not Abe Frhoman, although he is the sausage k ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 27 June 2004

Subject: My past Bose-itis is wearing off, but I need some advice...

Sorry to tell ya, Mister (we've spoken before, I used to go by Lou Cifer, ha ha Lucifer, get it?) but it seems that with prices on Bose goods up I can safely sell my system and get one that produces a fuller range. I noticed that pink noise tests on my reciever don't match from speaker to speaker, indicating timbre mismatch. It's strange, how each seems to take the same tone in 5.1 pink noise tests on equal output with a different outgoing tone altered. For example, from FL, C, FR, RR, RL, SUB, the outgoing notes are like this: C, B, A, B, D, when the average tone on output would be a A on all channels for example. I'm still a fan of the 171, which nobody seems to know exists, but the AM15 I built has got to go. I wanna know from Mike Shea and everyone else here, if a Cambridge Soundworks Movieworks 58 reconditioned system is worth 240$ straight from the company. I like the prospect of a more solid response from 39-16Khz and a real powered SUBWOOFER producing what some call musical and accurate bass, it comes closer to my Grado's, although i doubt anything can best them for the money. (I shouldn't advertise, but I will say that an audition is something everyone should do of the SR60's...) I'm planning on selling the bass module for 300+ since it has everything and the double cubes for about 250+. Who's to say I'm wrong when I want to increase my sound performance potential and get a wad of meat (MEATWAD), cough, I mean wad of cash in my pocket at the same time?

Please email me directly or respond on this forum, because any advice or critique of my plan is welcome, and I would greatly appreciate any help.

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 26 June 2004

Subject: To Clarfiy

"My new receiver allows you to adjust as low as 40hz. My Acoustimass plays very well at this setting, and actually performs a lot better then the default setting."

What I meant to say was, I have my receiver's subwoofer output set on 40hz, and the Acoustimass performs better at this setting then at the default setting of 100hz.

From: Mister ( mr@mister.com ) on 26 June 2004

Subject: Something I want to dispute

I've seen it mentioned here and other places that the Bose Acoustimass module is only capable of producing the following frequencies:

46Hz to 13.3kHz

I found that to be innaccurate this past week. I recently purchased a new Yamaha receiver to go along with an Acoustimass 15 II. On most receivers, it allows you to adjust the frequency cap of the pre-out going to your subwoofer (usually adjustable from 60-200hz). My new receiver allows you to adjust as low as 40hz. My Acoustimass plays very well at this setting, and actually performs a lot better then the default setting.

There is no clipping or bottoming out, the bass is smooth and strong and I would guess by my ears that I'm hearing frequencies as low as 27hz to 30hz.....no where near the "46hz" folks are claiming.

Some people tend to be deceptive to prove a point and will measure an old passive Bose woofer and "claim" it was a newer series because they know the average customer wouldn't know the difference in model numbers.

From: Abe ( seeberg666@yahoo.com ) on 24 June 2004

Subject: 2 years or so since I got the AM15 on eBay, and now I'm thinking of hocking it for a better system.

Haven't posted here IN A LONG TIME. I've been listening to the Bose system I compiled back in 2000-2001 extensively, and now that I have Grado SR60 headphones (Mike, you should listen to these bad boys!!), my system, a combo of AM10series2 cubes and an AM15 subwoofer, doesn't stack up. I find that the sub is fine, I got it used for around 200 and can sell it for more now that it has been completed. 46-202hz @+-2.3dB is acceptable to me(and I may upgrade the 5 1/4" woofers to premium ones), so I may keep it, but the cubes are simply unacceptable. I now hate listening to them since my headphones are so magnificent. Is there a full and compact 5.1 system out there I might be able to get for under 300-400$ that compares in resolution and character to my Grados? I'm leaning toward offerings from Caimbridge Soundworks, and if I keep my sub, can I get 5 matched compact satellites that go from 200hz-20khz for cheap? I really want that top end and warmth that just isn't there with my cubes without having to saturate with equalization a major no-no, but like I said, the sub is fine. I can use all of its existing connectors for future setups. Please help me get off my past Bose addiction!
(I'm now a total Grado whore, but boy oh boy is that fun!!)

~Run to the hills, run for your liiiiife!!!~

From: Jack ( rocketman44@excite.com ) on 23 June 2004

Subject: Added comments on Bose Speakers

Sorry, wanted to add another comment and it does not seem that I can edit my previous one:

In regard to your criticism of the Bose "Direct/Reflective" concept, there are other reputable manufacturers which also use a similar concept. Bouncing a percentage of sound off walls is in no way restricted to Bose nor is it necessarily an inaccurate way to achieve realistic results. Mirage, a top speaker manufacturer, boasts about their 360 degree Omni-polar technology which invariably bounces some sound off walls. In fact, MIrage claims that only 30% of the sound is directly aimed at the listening area.

There are simply different schools of thought as to how to best achieve accurate sound and a 'live music' experience in the home, and one school of thought is that direct-reflective techniques are a legitimate way of doing that. Bose's promotion of this technique does not in itself discredit their speakers in any way.

Again, I am not partial toward or against Bose speakers.

From: Jack ( rocketman44@excite.com ) on 22 June 2004

Subject: Bose Speakers

Interesting article, and I have noticed that many Ausio Review posts on Bose speakers are negative. I do not own Bose speakers, and have rarely heard them, so I am no fan of Bose nor have I any reason to personally dislike them.

I do however have reservations about certain assertions made in your article, one as follows:

- Spring-clip connectors, though less expensive than multi-way binding posts, are not in themselves related to sound quality nor a sign of a poorly made or "cheap" speaker. They are simply a means that some very well reputed manufacturers still use to cut some cost from their speakers. For example, I own a Velodyne subwoofer (CHT-8) that uses spring-clip terminals for its speaker level inputs. This is simply a cost-saving measure employed by a company that is world-renowned for building excellent subs. The CHT-8 just happens to be the lowest priced model in their CHT line, hence the use of spring clips. I also own a six year old pair of Paradigm Atoms which also employ spring clips. At that time, as now, the Atoms were highly regarded speakers. The use of clips (and also a non-removable grille, which Paradigm still uses on the low end of their Performance Series speakers) are again simply a cost saving measure used by a fine manufacturer of speakers. Hence, one cannot simply look at a set of spring clips on a speaker and automatically assume that the speaker is not worthy of consideration.

Also, some newer Bose models do in fact use binding posts (the 161 for example).

- Frequency response measurements for speakers, as well as some other speaker specs, must be taken with a certain 'grain of salt'. FR measurements are often not especially helpful in determining actual performance. They are subject to many variations. That said however, any speaker that starts dramatcially rolling off at 13.3 KHZ must make one wonder how it can possibly sound good at high frequencies. So your point is a good one, though we should be mindful of the limitations of such measurements in speakers.

Overall a pretty good article. I consider myself an audio enthusiast with no prejudice against Bose products either way.

From: R.J. Rauso ( RJRauso@aol.com ) on 11 May 2004

Subject: what does BOSE actaully stand for?

"Buy Other Sound Equipment"

And that is the truth. Anyone that knows good sound knows Bose is garbage, I trully feel sorry for those that have wasted their money on anything Bose makes. An old roomate had a Bose system that he just loved, and so did everyone else. Then they would walk upstairs and hear my system and say "who's is that stereo? It sounds better then anything I've ever heard before." At the time I had a yamaha rx-v2095 reciever which was about 1600 hundred dollars, but my old speakers weren't very high-end,(some decent old-school jbl l-56 for the mains, a cheap jbl center and the surrounds were some klh's.) Oh, but I did have a klipsch ksw-15 at the time as well. This system price-wise is the same as the best bose system mentioned above. With not one speaker being voiced matched, it sounded a billion times better than anything Bose has ever "wanted to sound like." My roomate said to me, but I don't need anything that good to satisfy me. Yeah, his Bose would distort like a chicken being plucked when they were pushed hard, go figure, you really can't polish a turd and make it look good, but if you tell someone it's a priceless rock from Mars, someone might buy it. Someone in the last post said the Bose was better because of it's multi-room set-up? Is that so you can listen to sh*t all over the house? Get w/the program, every middle to high end reciever has this feature, and use some cotton swabs to clean out your ears.

From: Shannon ( dmgr7@aol.com ) on 6 February 2004

Subject: fair comparison?

C'mon Mike! You can't compare the lifestyle 50 to an onkyo tx-sr 800 THX receiver with a Boston Acoustic 9000 speaker package. They aren't even similar products. Sure the bose product is going to cost more, it gives you the capability of controlling sound in 4 separate rooms in your home. Along with a touch screen RF remote that will allow you to sit in any of those rooms and control your listening. Not only can you listen in 4 different rooms, but you are able to listen to something different in each room simultaneously. Unfortunately, unlike yourself, not all of us have frequency and decibal meters in our homes. The human ear can pick up very little discrepincies in sound between these systems. So, it comes down to convenience and features. I am not a Bose advocate, but I am a truth seeker.